rRevoistes, comment vous faites ?

Les gaz ! (et les déchets aussi)
Message
Auteur
Avatar du membre
nicolas schreyer
Kirikou
Messages : 4678
Enregistré le : 28 oct. 2006, 20:57
Recycleur : pas les sous
Localisation : assez près du lac pour aller plonger à pied...

#31 Message par nicolas schreyer » 11 mars 2007, 20:36

Stephane a écrit :Parce qu'il ne satisfait pas à la norme EN14143. :ccomca:
Aucun recycleur à circuit-fermé mécanique (à la KISS) ne satisfait cette norme (rEvo, Kiss, Mégalodon Copis, Submatix, Voyager, etc...)
j'ai entendu dire que les Mégalodon seraient homologables avec une nouvelle gestion électronique (l'année prochaine) quelqu'un en a aussi entendu parler ?
absinthe powered-OLED displayed
Adepte de la "Bernie's no light method"
SM Swiss-team

Avatar du membre
jacquesm
Wingmaster
Messages : 418
Enregistré le : 16 mars 2006, 23:07
Recycleur : Azimuth, Evolution+
Localisation : Meudon l'hiver Arcachon juillet

MEG

#32 Message par jacquesm » 11 mars 2007, 22:48

Oui, ils devraient recevoir leur homologation en mai/juin ... 2006. Le problème, c'est que cette date est passée, le papier non, et j'ai pas encore lu l'explication.
A ploufs Jacques

Avatar du membre
tursiops
Long hose addicted
Messages : 98
Enregistré le : 13 déc. 2005, 16:05
Recycleur : Sentinel
Contact :

#33 Message par tursiops » 11 mars 2007, 23:16

nicolas schreyer a écrit :
Stephane a écrit :Parce qu'il ne satisfait pas à la norme EN14143. :ccomca:
Aucun recycleur à circuit-fermé mécanique (à la KISS) ne satisfait cette norme (rEvo, Kiss, Mégalodon Copis, Submatix, Voyager, etc...)
j'ai entendu dire que les Mégalodon seraient homologables avec une nouvelle gestion électronique (l'année prochaine) quelqu'un en a aussi entendu parler ?
La date avancée actuellement pour le Mégalodon est juin 2007.
Tursiops Aventures
www.tursiops-aventures.com
www.abystrad.com
info@tursiops-aventures.com
+33 682 870 368

Avatar du membre
maxef
Wingmaster
Messages : 404
Enregistré le : 20 févr. 2007, 23:33
Recycleur : A Yellow Turtle
Localisation : Marseille

#34 Message par maxef » 12 mars 2007, 00:44

tursiops a écrit :
maxef a écrit :si la norme homologue seulement les e-ccr ca veut dire que pour elle les m-ccr sont moins fiables ?
personellement, j'aurais tendance à dire qu'un mécanique est plus fiable car on "controle" mieux ca machine et l'électronique reste toujours plus délicat surtout en milieu marin ... je m'y connait pas bcp en recycleur mais c'est mon sentiment ...
Pourquoi toujours garder cette phobie de l'électronique?
Ton ordi de plongée craint l'eau?

Un eCCR comme l'Inspi fonctionne très bien sans électronique en faisant une injection manuelle d'O2 ou de diluant. Il suffit éventuellement de prévoir une mesure supplémentaire de la PO2, indépendante du reste.
Toutes les techniques d'urgence sont enseignées lors de la formation à cette machine.

Personnellement je me sens bien plus en sécurité avec mon Inspi qu'avec n'importe quel circuit ouvert...

A++
Christian
Salut Christian,

Je ne critique aboslument pas l'inspi (et les eCCR). C'est une machine qui me plait énormément et il me tarde de pourvoir plonger avec ce type de recycleur.

Ce que j'essayais de dire précédement découle du raisonement : plus une machine est complexe plus la probabilité de panne est grande.
Les redondances et les manip d'urgence sont prévues en conséquence ce qui limite le risque d'accident ( c'est d'ailleurs l'un des points qui a permis sa certification).
Mais un mCCR reste quand même de conception plus simple, et donc pourquoi la norme est aussi sévère avec eux ?

Pour la comparaison avec l'ordi de plongée, j'aime pas trop car le danger potentiel n'est pas le même et au niveau conception ca reste différent.

A+
Max.

Avatar du membre
tursiops
Long hose addicted
Messages : 98
Enregistré le : 13 déc. 2005, 16:05
Recycleur : Sentinel
Contact :

#35 Message par tursiops » 12 mars 2007, 01:11

maxef a écrit : Ce que j'essayais de dire précédement découle du raisonement : plus une machine est complexe plus la probabilité de panne est grande.
Les redondances et les manip d'urgence sont prévues en conséquence ce qui limite le risque d'accident ( c'est d'ailleurs l'un des points qui a permis sa certification).
Mais un mCCR reste quand même de conception plus simple, et donc pourquoi la norme est aussi sévère avec eux ?

Pour la comparaison avec l'ordi de plongée, j'aime pas trop car le danger potentiel n'est pas le même et au niveau conception ca reste différent.

A+
Max.
C'est là que la confusion se trouve!
On associe à tort l'électronique à une complexification d'un recycleur alors qu'elle est là justement pour simplifier et sécuriser l'utilisation.
Tu mets en route et suis les indications de ton électronique (basique pour le Classic, très complète pour le Vision). A la fin de la procédure ta machine est prête à plonger. Après, 2 cas se présentent:

1. Tout va bien, l'électronique gère la machine. Tu jettes un oeil de temps en temps sur le contrôleur pour vérifier (malgré les alarmes sonores et/ou visuelles). Belle plongée!

2. Une alarme! Tu vérifies et agis éventuellement selon un protocole déterminé.

Evidemment tout est question de rigueur. On évite de se presser pour vérifier et préparer sa machine, mais une fois prête, elle est prête!

La comparaison avec un ordi est inadaptée? Soit! Mais pour une plongée engagée pars-tu avec un seul instrument? Moi non! Redondance...

Un eCCR est un mCCR assisté. Viens suivre une formation et je t'en convaincrai!

A++
Christian
;)
Tursiops Aventures
www.tursiops-aventures.com
www.abystrad.com
info@tursiops-aventures.com
+33 682 870 368

Avatar du membre
maxef
Wingmaster
Messages : 404
Enregistré le : 20 févr. 2007, 23:33
Recycleur : A Yellow Turtle
Localisation : Marseille

#36 Message par maxef » 12 mars 2007, 01:24

tursiops a écrit :
Un eCCR est un mCCR assisté. Viens suivre une formation et je t'en convaincrai!
Suivre une formation je suis partant, mais je crois qu'il est plus judicieux d'attendre d'avoir les moyens de s'offrir en même temps la machine. Histoire de ne pas avoir de temps mort entre la formation et mes premières plongées recycleur.

Avatar du membre
tursiops
Long hose addicted
Messages : 98
Enregistré le : 13 déc. 2005, 16:05
Recycleur : Sentinel
Contact :

#37 Message par tursiops » 12 mars 2007, 01:37

maxef a écrit : Suivre une formation je suis partant, mais je crois qu'il est plus judicieux d'attendre d'avoir les moyens de s'offrir en même temps la machine. Histoire de ne pas avoir de temps mort entre la formation et mes premières plongées recycleur.
Evidemment!
Mais j'ai commencé ainsi et ça m'a motivé à trouver de quoi acheter une machine très rapidement!!!

;)

On pourrait imaginer organiser une formation "spéciale UFP" un de ces jours...
Tursiops Aventures
www.tursiops-aventures.com
www.abystrad.com
info@tursiops-aventures.com
+33 682 870 368

Avatar du membre
Jacques Vettier
Super pédago
Messages : 4043
Enregistré le : 09 déc. 2005, 22:10
Recycleur : On s'demande!
Localisation : an ba Granier la

#38 Message par Jacques Vettier » 12 mars 2007, 10:40

Mais un mCCR reste quand même de conception plus simple, et donc pourquoi la norme est aussi sévère avec eux ?
La norme n'est pas réellement sévère avec les mCCR, elle n'a tout simplement pas été faite pour eux. Ou plus exactement, elle a été faite pour que les mCCR ne puissent répondre à cette norme, ils n'y répondent donc pas.
Si tout cela participait d'autre chose que d'intérêts commerciaux, on aurait une norme spécifique aux recycleurs manuels. Ce qui finira peut-être par se produire un jour. Le jour où les fabricants de recycleurs mécaniques représenteront une "force" suffisante pour être entendue.
Amitié
Jacques
Modifié en dernier par Jacques Vettier le 12 mars 2007, 11:31, modifié 1 fois.

Avatar du membre
tursiops
Long hose addicted
Messages : 98
Enregistré le : 13 déc. 2005, 16:05
Recycleur : Sentinel
Contact :

#39 Message par tursiops » 12 mars 2007, 13:44

Jacques Vettier a écrit : Si tout cela participait d'autre chose que d'intérêts commerciaux, on aurait une norme spécifique aux recycleurs manuels. Ce qui finira peut-être par se produire un jour. Le jour où les fabricants de recycleurs mécaniques représenteront une "force" suffisante pour être entendue.
Amitié
Jacques
Absolument!
Et on se demande à qui profite ce protectionnisme.
C'est d'autant plus aberrant que ça barre la route à des machines fantastiques, alors que d'autres ont pu obtenir ce précieux papier de manière frelatée.....

A++
Christian
Tursiops Aventures
www.tursiops-aventures.com
www.abystrad.com
info@tursiops-aventures.com
+33 682 870 368

Avatar du membre
venturi
NPSFQQA
Messages : 2833
Enregistré le : 27 déc. 2005, 15:58
Recycleur : un à la fois
Localisation : Stromness, Kabelvaag

#40 Message par venturi » 12 mars 2007, 16:30

un vieux truc toujours intéressant de Martin Parker ici, répondant à Djorge himself :

http://www.nwdesigns.com/rbarchive/1997/1916.html.gz
Cigarettes, Whisky, et p'tites pépées O2

Avatar du membre
jacquesm
Wingmaster
Messages : 418
Enregistré le : 16 mars 2006, 23:07
Recycleur : Azimuth, Evolution+
Localisation : Meudon l'hiver Arcachon juillet

Ton lien

#41 Message par jacquesm » 13 mars 2007, 23:31

Ben ton lien : PFFFFFFFFFrtout !
File Not Found The requested URL was not found on this server

Mais merci d'avoir joué : essaie encore une fois !
A ploufs Jacques

Avatar du membre
Stephane
Sièstomane
Messages : 6237
Enregistré le : 09 déc. 2005, 12:39
Recycleur : rEvo3 rMS
Localisation : Nantes
Contact :

#42 Message par Stephane » 13 mars 2007, 23:33

Jacques, il suffit d'enlever le "/" à la fin.
Stéphane Acounis :ggraf:

Le train sifflera, crois moi.

Tonio
NPSFQQA
Messages : 5833
Enregistré le : 09 déc. 2005, 16:23

#43 Message par Tonio » 14 mars 2007, 09:27

Oui mais les gz je fais pas moi :langue:
http://www.e-luma.com/

Avatar du membre
Stephane
Sièstomane
Messages : 6237
Enregistré le : 09 déc. 2005, 12:39
Recycleur : rEvo3 rMS
Localisation : Nantes
Contact :

#44 Message par Stephane » 14 mars 2007, 09:56

Voilà l'article en question:
From: Martin Parker ^lt;mjp_-from-_apvalves.avel.co.uk>
Date: Mon Jul 28 15:16:59 1997
Message-ID: <33DCF02B.7FB@apvalves.avel.co.uk>

26.07.97

Dear George,

I've just subscribed to your list yesterday.

I'm not going to enter into long winded correspondance with you - but you asked for a manufacturer's comment -
here it is. When you give your presentation at the DOC we'll get a chance to talk and let you have a good look
at the Inspiration.

There's an awful lot of speculation, much of it written by people that have not got a lot of experience on
rebreathers and I'll try to answer most of it:

Firstly, you may ask - who is this Martin Parker, and what does he know and who is AP Valves?

I've been diving since 1973, at the age of 13, (that's when I did my aqualung training with the local BSAC
club) and have been an active diver since. I've been around diving since the age of three. My family, the
owners of A P Valves have been making diving equipment since 1969. I've personally been designing BCs and
associated valves for 20 years. You may ask, why don't we sell our products in the USA sport market? Have you
seen which brand of BCs are used by the US Secret Service? The answer is very simply that we sell all we make
to our existing markets. We have held a huge market share of our selected markets, in excess of 60% since
1984! Unlike most so called manufacturers we do actually make our products. We have a staff of 65. We make all
our metal components on a 24 hour operation on 4 CNC lathes and 2 machining centres. We have seven injection
moulding machines, two of which work 24 hour/7day weeks, the other 5 - 10 hour days. We make our own inner
bags, outer bags etc etc. We only make diving equipment. What makes us virtually unique is the fact that we
make all our own moulds, tools and fixtures as well.
On the Inspiration, it's taken us two years to get from working prototype into proper production which is
pretty good going. If we produced machined fittings on a batch basis we would have been in production much
earlier. This would have resulted in much higher production costs, far too slow a production process, less
flexibility in design and more QA effort to maintain quality. What we have done is used our time to make the
production moulds. Production moulds ensure repeatability, compatibility of fittings between one batch and the
next and make it much easier to ensure a leak proof assembly. You obviously don't know much about our Buddy
range of BCs but ours is probably the only make of production BC that will remain fully inflated for two
weeks plus. Most others will lose pressure quite badly over night. Something else - we've been using the same
materials and production processes since 1980. So when it comes to the fittings and counterlungs, the whole
design/manufacturing process was speeded up enormously because of existing knowledge.

I first looked at rebreathers and their market potential in 1985, when an inventor came to us with an idea for
diluent addition. My first dive on a rebreather though wasn't until November 1994 with Peter Readey and his
Prism. . In December 1994, a friend of mine shipped me a Fieno over from Japan which I used in the pool once.
December 1994 I started my Trimix training with Dave Thompson.
In January 95, I dived with the Drager LAR V, FGT and Atlantis prototypes and afterwards went back and tried
the Prism again.
During 1995 I had many dives with the Drager Atlantis prototypes and later with the FGT and LAR V. My
instruction was directly from the development engineers at Drager.

In April 1995, Dave Thompson asked me if I could help him with the counterlungs for a rebreather he had been
developing. In May, he offered me a dive on it - it was his third or fourth version. The 16m dive was in the
Sea off Fowey, Cornwall - a few miles from our factories. Compared to the Prism, the Atlantis was easy to
dive with but this closed circuit unit was by far and away the easiest unit I had used to date. Another big
plus is that it had two open circuit bailouts built in, Air and O2. I am a real sceptic when it comes to
electronics, but when he showed me how small they were and how few components there were I started to see the
sense in the system and we already knew of the numerous advantages of keeping it simple. All the units I had
read about and had seen were obviously overcomplicating the issues and not sticking to the essentials. You've
obviously become accustomed to the plate fulls of spaghetti banded in the US. When you see our unit - I can
promise you that you will start to reconsider your views.

The first task was to build a proper, open/close mouthpiece. We built about seven different designs, and
slowly started to find manufacturing solutions one by one. I've always been dismayed by these rebreathers that
do not tolerate water entry . We've all done it - taken the mouthpiece out without closing it. No matter how
many times you tell a diver not to do it - he will, once or twice any way. The Inspiration's water traps work
and allow the diver to get away with the occasional fopar. This diver friendly attitude prevails throughout.


Throughout the development we have had dialogue with the DRA at Alverstoke (Defense Research Agency) who do
all the unmanned and manned chamber trials for all the RN breathing apparatus.
We showed the product for the first time in June 1996 at the IANTD conference in Swindon.
The first DRA tests were done in July 1996. These showed we were easily inside the Norwegian Petroleum
Directive/Dept. of Energy Guidelines with regard to Work of breathing. These standards require the work of
breathing to be less than 3 joules per litre at 50m (with a Nitrogen based diluent) and a breathing rate of
62.5 lpm. We were inside 3 joules per litre at 77m! We needed to improve our calibration method of the cells
as we were consistently 0.1bar out, and there was room for improvement in the duration of the scrubber.

The calibration method was instantly cured, and the scrubber was improved over the next months.

Dave Thompson, of Phoenix Diver Training, has been doing pool and open water training since last November.
There's been now over 2000 man hours on the Inspiration in addition to countless hours of machine testing,
honing the mouthpiece, fittings, counterlungs, water traps, scrubber etc. This machine testing is beyond most
companies' budgets (especially the rebreather companies). For us, it's not nearly so onerous as we have our
own Ansti-breathing machine, in fact we were the first company to get one - Now Scubapro has one, Mares, Apeks
plus a couple of others. It cuts out the bullshit in designing for performance at depth. The modification
you've made either works or it doesn't.
People who don't know much about machine testing tend to disbelieve it's relevance. For 40 years manufacturers
made regulators with naff performance and yet made high performance claims all the same. Learn from this - you
can't just rely on putting a diver in the water and ask him to evaluate it's performance at depth. You can't
be sure his work rate is the same, you can only test for relatively short periods, you can't test at high
flowrates. You can't repeat exactly the same test keeping all parameters the same or changing just one
parameter - just in colder water, or just a bit deeper. Since Ian Himmens and his partner Stan of ANSTI, Ian
used to run the DRA facility, built a relevant breathing machine in the late 80's the breathing performance of
the world's regulators has improved dramatically. Scubapro went from making DVs that were just okay at 25m in
1988 to producing truly high performance regulators today along with a few other brands.

We went back to the DRA at the end of April'97. We were checking three parameters for the unmanned part of the
CE approval testing:

1) Work of breathing: The Inspiration is inside the 3 joules per litre limit @ 62.5 lpm, at 110m on Trimix,
inside at 150m on Heliox and inside at 50m with an AIR diluent. The Inspiration has been subjected to an RMV
of 90 litres per minute @ 50m with an Air diluent. This is basically done to see if anything breaks. From the
graph, the counterlung elastance can be measured and the peak to peak measurements recorded. The Buddy
Inspiration is inside the recommended limits on all counts. These trials, were done with the medium and the
large counterlungs and in both vertical and horizontal positions, in all combinations.

2) CO2 duration: This is conducted in water temperature of 4 to 5 degrees Celsius. The NPD guidelines call for
a work/rest cycle. The DRA have found that by continuously running the breathing machine at 40 lpm RMV,
injecting CO2 at 1.6 litres per minute then they get exactly the same results as using the work/rest cycle.
The first trial is done at a constant depth of 20m. The gas at the mouthpiece is continuously monitored with a
mass spectrometer linked to a pen plotter. The run is halted when the ppCO2 reaches 0.5 kPa.
There are subsequent runs following proper dive profiles at 50m and 100m. These tests are repeated and in both
orientations to confirm the findings. After a number of tests and scrubber fills the worst case is quoted.
With the Inspiration all the CO2 trials agreed within 4 minutes of each other.

Our scrubber design proved to be the most efficient they had seen in cold water.

This testing needs to be done on any rebreather you use. You might be okay to go down and the rebreather kept
you alive, so it must be alright, is not proper testing. The high CO2 producers are going to catch you out, as
are the guys that really start breathing heavily down there, because of some unforeseen work load.
If the manufacturer of your rebreather has done work of breathing and CO2 runs at theses flow rates at your
target depth and mix then - good on him. If he hasn't, then the fact that you made the dive and lived is not
sufficient proof that it is safe for the consumer.

3) Oxygen Control: Oxygen uptake is done with a gas exchange system they have and O2 analysis measured at the
mouthpiece. This is done at the same time as the CO2 trials. The Inspiration is a world leader in this
respect. The PO2 is maintained at the mouthpiece within plus/minus 0.02 bar of the setpoint throughout all
dives. In fast ascents the PO2 can drop from 1.3 to 1.1, but once the ascent is halted - steady state setpoint
is achieved in all instances within 20 seconds.

The CE testing involves diving trials, jump tests, subjecting to cold temperatures down to -30 degrees Celsius
and up to 70 degrees Celsius, pull test on the breathing hoses. - Our hoses and connections withstand 60kg for
over 3 ½ hours.
These tests are all done by 3rd party test houses. Unlike the USA, in Europe we have to prove that our
Breathing Apparatus will do what we say it will.

Now, what many are paranoid about, rightly so at this stage:
Electronics - just how reliable are they going to be.

The easiest answer is to come and take a look at what we've got. It is completely different to other offerings
and when you are ready come for a dive. This week if you want to.

I'll cover just some of the points here:


Sensors:
We've modified the sensors considerably to prevent connectors coming off, water getting on the face and water
getting in the back end. Inside every scrubber, it's humid. Humidity though in itself is something we can live
with- Humidity is something we can build into the overall accuracy, just the same way as we have to allow for
the plus/minus 1% accuracy claim of the cell manufacturers. What is bad news is when the moisture condenses
and if you get large globules of water settling on the cell face, or anywhere else you don't want it.
The position of the cells is the first critical aid in preventing this happening. We've then modified both
ends of the cell to stop condensed water running onto the cell face and cell back.
We use three cells. We take the average of the nearest two for oxygen control. This is okay if you only get
one cell go down. But what happens if you get two go down? Once one cell is outside the other two by 0.15 bar
a loud buzzer goes off, one second every other second and the display alternates between error warning and the
normal display. Because we display all three cell readings simultaneously in the raw (just simply converted to
PO2), you can see the cells responding to you breathing and it's easy to spot if any of the cells are faulty.
You can then make a judgement on what is the cause and cure.

Oxygen Controllers:
These are tiny with very few components. Completely encapsulated for vibration and water resistance. Located
in the handsets.
The Inspiration has two sets of electronics, with independent power supplies and both capable of driving the
solenoid and controlling the PO2. Whichever you switch on first is the Master and the secondary unit is the
Slave. In the event of an instantaneous power interruption to the Master's supply, then the Slave takes over
the role as Master (within 1 second). The set defaults to using the two setpoints of 0.7 and 1.3 every time
you switch on. To switch from the low setpoint to high is a manual switch.(You hold the centre button in for 2
seconds) and you'd do this once you're at your target depth or below 20m. The low setpoint can be changed from
0.5 to 0.9 bar and the high setpoint can be changed from 0.9 to 1.5. This can be done underwater if required.
The batteries are tiny and last for 35 hours as a Master and 75+ hours as a Slave.

The Wiring Loom:
Every CCR I see has wiring everywhere - With connectors everywhere. We soon learned that connectors are bad
news. With a 10 core wire, for every connector you build in you have introduced 33 possible areas for a fault.
By removing all the connectors, except those that go onto the sensors, we've suddenly built in a massive gain
in reliability. Not to mention the cost saving.



Calibration of Sensors
Calibration is not necessary every time you dive but should be done on a daily basis.
This is done on the complete unit and takes about 25 seconds just prior to the dive. The calibration routine
is built into the start up sequence. You get an option to calibrate. Once you've selected "Yes" then you are
prompted for the ambient pressure, we allow for 700 to 1050 mbar. This allows for diving at an altitude of
about 2000m on a low pressure day. You are then prompted for the oxygen percentage in the oxygen cylinder. You
should use diving oxygen (99.9%).The system then prompts you to open the mouthpiece and open the oxygen
cylinder valve. It then calibrates automatically.

Warning Buzzer
The buzzer is activated on Switch on - a quick check that it is actually working.
The buzzer is activated if the PO2 drops below 0.4 bar and rises above 1.6 bar.
It is also activated if the battery power fades. The system has over 2 hours of life left at this stage, much
longer if switched off and then back on again. The Master then becomes the Slave and the original Slave unit
has now taken over and is controlling the solenoid. The buzzer is also activated for oxygen cell errors.

Electromagnetic Compatibility
The Inspiration has been tested and meets the requirements of :
1) EN50081/1 (Referencing EN55022 Class B) - Emission testing (i.e does the equipment emit nasties and
interfere with other equipment).
2) EN50082/1 (Referencing IEC 801-2, Class 8kV (Static discharge resistance)
3) EN50082/1 (Referencing IEC 801-3, Class 3 volts per metre (Testing susceptibility to magnetic fields -
i.e. susceptibility to radio, radar etc.)




Regarding the incident you were referring to in Dorset with the Buddy Inspiration rebreather:
I don't know all the facts because I wasn't there but I'll relay them as I have been told by Dave Thompson. On
the 9th July, the girl was on the 4th day of a rebreather training course. She was accompanied by an
instructor on OC, not Dave Thompson, and a videographer on OC. She was using one of the prototype Inspirations
which had no backup electronics. The girl had done one dive, surfaced, spent some time on the surface,
breathing on the unit, submerged again to 6m. I haven't seen the video but I'm told she can be seen panicking,
not waving her arms around, but visibly distressed, she then goes unconscious. Her instructor is immediately
in and takes her to the surface. She is resussed by Dave Thompson, on the boat. She did take in water. A
helicopter was called in and she was taken to a hospital accompanied by her instructor. In the event of the
diver taking in water, this is a normal procedure. Oxygen could have been administered from a rebreather on
board or from the boats own supply if it had been appropriate - it may have been administered - I don't know.
The girl made a complete recovery.


I'm told the screen was blank. On this prototype, a thumb screw is turned pushing the battery onto the
contacts. The rebreather was discarded while they sorted the girl out. Afterwards, the electronics were turned
on and they worked okay. When I received the unit back at the factory the battery wasn't in it. I've loaded in
a new battery, turned the controller on and it works fine. I've personally dived with the unit. I have assumed
that the electronics weren't turned on properly so it was possible to inadvertently turn them off.
I'm told that neither she nor the instructor monitored her PO2 for about 8 minutes.

What we've done:
1) we knew this was a possibility. If the power fails and the diver doesn't monitor the PO2 then
unconsciousness will occur. This is why we've got backup electronics with independent power supply which take
over immediately and why it's got to be made clearer the importance of knowing your PO2.
2) The on/off switching method only lasted for two prototypes and was changed. Since March it's been a more
definite on or off.
3) All prototypes are updated to production spec. with back up electronics.
4) Dave Thompson has already reviewed and amended the course and instructor behaviour.



Availability in the USA?
Firstly, we'll launch on our home market and see how the demand grows and then see if we've got any spare
production after that. We already have worldwide liability cover for both rebreathers and BCs incl. the USA
so despite rumours to the contrary we're not avoiding the US for that reason. The fact is, we're not avoiding
the US at all, it's just there's no point in talking about the unit before it's ready for full production and
available in sufficient numbers. Also, before then we have our existing markets to satisfy before we start
from scratch in a completely new market.
As far as Steve Millard is concerned: He is a rebreather novice, he's never owned one, and his reports aren't
always technically accurate. Such as 20 moulds in the hand set, or changing the CIS lunar scrubber underwater
- I think he did say - I can't imagine why someone would want to do that! But with regards to build state of
the Inspiration, he is reporting to you what he saw. It is imminent and as far as him lying about his
rebreather - talk to him in August.

Bail- Out:
You know Bail-out is as much a limiting factor to the dive as other considerations such as gas in the diluent.
The Inspiration's bail out is suitable for 40 to 50m diving, depending on bottom time. Beyond that, the
bail-out must be re-assessed. Give me your dive profile and I'll come up with an equipment layout to suit with
a bail-out option, then let you have a look at it.

My dive on the 9th July was to 63m in Cornwall. It was a Trimix dive, gas switching to air diluent at 40m:
I see that you knocked this as a ridiculously shallow dive, compared to your dives. Please bear in mind this
was the first manned dive on the Inspiration using Trimix and I'm sure you would want to do a dive well within
your normal range before going deeper. Besides that the lantern we wanted was on this wreck at this depth.


Lastly, the Buddy Inspiration has no link whatsoever with other makers of rebreathers, past or present.

Additionally, Kevin Gurr has had no input whatsoever in the development of the Buddy Inspiration.

Also I saw that we were injecting diluent over the sensors. - Where do these stories come from? I think
they're confusing us with another rebreather.

Best Regards,

Martin Parker, Managing Director, A P Valves
e-mail: mjp@apvalves.avel.co.uk, fax: 44 1326 573605
Stéphane Acounis :ggraf:

Le train sifflera, crois moi.

Avatar du membre
Guilhem
NPSFQQA
Messages : 3585
Enregistré le : 09 déc. 2005, 17:00
Recycleur : pSCR, bientôt iCCR
Localisation : Près d'Antibes

#45 Message par Guilhem » 14 mars 2007, 15:53

Bonjour Christian,

Preambule: je ne suis pas plongeur recycleur, j'ai fait 1 plongee en SCR, 1 en CCR oxy, c'est tout. Ca fait juste un moment que je me tripote les neurones sur le sujet, point, donc mon experience en la matiere est a prendre pour ce qu'elle vaut, surement pas grand chose.
tursiops a écrit : C'est là que la confusion se trouve!
On associe à tort l'électronique à une complexification d'un recycleur alors qu'elle est là justement pour simplifier et sécuriser l'utilisation.
Tu mets en route et suis les indications de ton électronique (basique pour le Classic, très complète pour le Vision). A la fin de la procédure ta machine est prête à plonger. Après, 2 cas se présentent:

1. Tout va bien, l'électronique gère la machine. Tu jettes un oeil de temps en temps sur le contrôleur pour vérifier (malgré les alarmes sonores et/ou visuelles). Belle plongée!

2. Une alarme! Tu vérifies et agis éventuellement selon un protocole déterminé.
Ceci donne l'etat de la machine a un moment, au debut de la plongee. Jusque la on est d'accord. Cependant, a mon sens, la grosse difficulte, c'est de savoir distinguer entre ces 2 cas. Car bien sur, avant d'etre en panne, une machine quelle qu'elle soit fonctionnait parfaitement. Et un recycleur ne tombe pas en panne dans son placard, mais sous l'eau. Donc on part avec un recycleur dans le cas 1 (ca marche), et a un moment, il va passer dans le cas "ca marche pas".
Deux choses:
- le cas "ca marche pas" peut se materialiser par une alarme (ton numero 2). Ou pas. La vigilance du plongeur est donc primordiale, car attendre passivement qu'une alarme sonne n'est pas fiable (pourtant, je ne remet de l'huile dans la voiture que quand un voyant s'allume, au lieu de controller regulierement...).
- le passage de "ca marche" a "ca marche pas" doit etre detecte par le plongeur. Pour moi, rien de pire qu'une machine qui presente l'apparence de fonctionner, mais en realite marche mal. Cad que toute panne doit etre detectable immanquablement. En circuit ouvert, si l'aiguille de mon mano est bloquee sur 50 bars alors que le bloc est vide, pas moyen de passer a cote, a un moment, ca ne debite plus, on est rappelle a l'ordre tres vite. En recycleur, c'est une autre paire de manche.
Un exemple (qui ne concerne pas l'Inspi): un hud qui dit "la ppO2 est correcte" en allumant de maniere fixe une diode verte a peut-etre un souci de conception. Qu'est-ce qui dit que l'electronique n'est pas plantee, avec la cellule bloquee sur "on" ?
Enfin, tu l'auras compris, pour moi tout est une histoire d'equilibre entre "simplifier, securiser" et "rendre tellement confortable qu'on baisse sa vigilance". Ma voiture est super securisante, elle pense a tout toute seule, du coup je ne fais plus l'entretien, je me repose sur l'electronique pour couper les phares quand je me gare, et quand je prend la vieille auto rustique, une fois sur deux je les laisse allumes...

Répondre

Qui est en ligne

Utilisateurs parcourant ce forum : Aucun utilisateur enregistré